Why people are willing to suspend the rules of civil society simply because they are acting online and in anonymity mystifies me. My rule for myself - if you wouldn't say it in person, don't say it online.

I always get upset when I read the shit comments you receive. The one you referred to above in particular really bugged me, though I'm glad to know she apologized. There is such a huge difference between criticism and judgment, as you have so eloquently reminded us.

Thank you for the post, and thanks especially for the wise words of a wise man. That one rule - it would be enough, if we would all just live it.

You don't apologize for taking time and doing the things you enjoy and love. I am constantly feeling guilty for spending time on my crafts, but you don't. And for that, I admire you.

Very, very well said, Cara.

I too believe in free speech on blogs and the only time I've removed comments is when I thought they would upset other people and cause a big flare-up in my comments.

I'm not sure if that's right or wrong, but my instinct was, for example, to delete the comment that called me a "dried out old hag" because I didn't want that to spawn a discussion in my comments of whether or not I'm a dried up old hag. ;-)

And as earthchick said, she gets upset at shit comments you receive, I don't want people getting upset over negative comments I may receive either. I've got a fairly thick skin, but a lot of my readers don't. My mom reads my blog, and all my comments, and I certainly don't want to upset her!

I think you've covered a lot of ground and I'm not sure I can do justice to any of it. The Golden Rule works for me and I think it's so important to remember that words can hurt - especially when they are written and not spoken. We've all heard it before about emails and how, without facial expression and tone, things that aren't meant to be hurtful can actually be misconstrued into being very hurtful.
I had someone judge me once on my blog and it hurt. She said I didn't show enough knitting and I used the blog to talk about how I spent my money instead. We passed a couple of emails back and forth about the topic and I told her that she was judging me on the slice of life she saw in my blog. I could be independently wealthy (I'm not) or completely debt free (I'm not) and none of that would be known to a blog reader so why assume that you know anything about me other than what I tell you? But you know, I learned a lot from that experience. I'm not glad it happened because it hurt a lot but I'm glad I got some lessons from it.
One last thing - I always heard that if you fill a room with shit, eventually you'll find a pony.

Last night I couldnt sleep. Why? Because I had read the blog of a v. vitriolic knitter who regularly takes it upon herself to fill her blog with purile commentary, oftentimes under the guise of inspiring a dialogue. Many of the comments left by this blog's readers were directed at two of my friends. Free speech is alive and well and living on the internet for in certain online forums, that sweet little clause in the constitution does not protect those who have been defamed on the internet by anonymous commenters and writers. Unfortunately with the good that the internet has to offer also comes the dark, unseemly underbelly. What to do? Stip blogging? Moderate comments? Keep your blog private? Hope no one Googles you to see what people are saying about you on a number of online forums? Grow a thick skin? Not sure. For now, all I can think is that Pandora's Box has been opened and what has come out has begun to erode an already decayed sense of civility among (some of) us.

Yeah. There are blogs I really don't like, and bloggers I *really* don't like, but I don't attack them in the comments or on my blog. I may be catty to my friends about those people, but never on a blog, mine or theirs or someone else's. I don't get people. Then again, I got hit by a car a few weeks ago and the driver drove on. So I really don't get people.

I do wish that, as you suggested, the Golden Rule was enough. But in blogland, even more than in "real" life, I think, there are just too many self-righteous people who think that either 1) because they are miserable in their lives, everyone else should be miserable, too, or 2)they are always right, always the only ones worth listening too, and always the only ones whose free speech rights are worth preserving, no matter how damaging, stupid or insipid their opinions.

What ever happened to, hey, if you don't like it or don't agree with it, DON'T READ THE DAMN BLOG. Leave the rest of us who ARE civil, and who DO like what's going on in the space the hell alone, and go somewhere where you do like/appreciate/comiserate with what's going on.

I personally think a code of conduct system would be, to some extent, more problematic than problem solving. It would be an open invitation for those assholes who make it their job in life to slash and burn at other people's lives and interests to purposely stab at the sites who try to utilize the code of conduct. You know, be spoilers. And with no way to enforce any of it, it all might elevate the nastiness instead of dialing it down.

It's really a shame that this discussion is taking place at all.

I like a lot of things about your blog, but I think my favorite is that you seem completely heartfelt and passionate about every single thing you write. Just needed to say that.

I guess I haven't been in the blogosphere for long enough to really run into the problems you discuss. They're mentioned enough, obliquely and directly, for me to realize they exist. But I haven't gotten nasty comments myself, nor have I seen many (any?) on others' blogs. Then again, I don't go back and re-read comments to entries I've already commented on, myself. Nor do I read every single comment if an entry already has 50 of them.

I'm not sure why I felt like my opinion needed that qualification, but there it is. :) Knitblogger-newbie or not, I *have* been online and engaging in discussions online since 94, and I've developed two cardinal rules for myself:

1. Never say anything about someone else that can easily be interpreted as nasty.

2. ALWAYS read comments and messages online in the best possible light.

Perhaps because I have an overabundance of faith in humanity, I really believe that those out to do harm number very few. A big part of the problem, I think, is that text on a screen is completely lacking in tone of voice--without this vast wealth of information, it's easy to read something as nastier than the author intended. Ironic sarcasm becomes snark. Attempts at humor get read as entirely nasty. People (and my this I mean nearly everyone I've interacted with online, knitblogger or not) often seem to automatically read the worst intent into any message. Going into my half-assed theories about why wouldn't do anyone justice, but I have found that simply trying to find the best possible meaning out of every comment has served me well.

Thanks for the post, Cara. You really make me think, and I appreciate that.

This (non-knitting) blogger has a post about the same article, which I like and happen to mostly agree with.

http://www.scalzi.com/whatever/005024.html

There are a ton of things that I have to say about this post, but since we know I'm long-winded, I'll spare everyone and leave it to a few thoughts.

First, I have only had two negative comments on my blog - EVER - a surprisingly small number given how long I've been blogging. I feel lucky in this, as more popular bloggers seem to get a TON of these nasty little bombs in their in-boxes. There are benefits to anonimity! Anyhoo, in both cases, when I continued the dialogue with the not-so-nice commenter in a constructive way, it ended well. One of those two people is a semi-regular "nice" commenter now, and I also visit her blog, which I discovered has some prime knitting.

I think sometimes when people reach your blog, they are at the end of a long, crappy day, and they just need to blow off steam. Nine times out of ten, if you politely tell them to blow it the other way, they do. (That tenth person you should just ban and forget - because there's no turning that type.) My strategy, I suppose, is to give the benefit of the doubt and attempt to diffuse the situation. If the comment is so offensive that there is nothing to be gained from interacting with the person (which has yet to happen to me - knock on wood), I would just delete it and not waste my time.

I also subscribe to your credo of kindness, although I would bridle under a code of conduct. Everyone gossips, and I know even my good friends must complain to each other about me at times, but I like what I put out there to be constructive, with the purpose of changing things that I do not like rather than simply bashing them. People don't respond to anger and name calling with anything but the same. If you say something in a calm manner, I think it's a lot more likely to make a difference.

I applaud your efforts to work though this and start a discussion, Cara.

xox, J

There was an incident some time ago where a blogger (a group of bloggers) lashed out at me and a group of my on-line friends. My biggest regret about the whole thing isn't that the person said what she said, but my reaction to what she said. While I never said anything I wouldn't have said to her face, the comments sent out a negative message. My reaction continues to haunt me and I regret it despite apologies on both sides.

Earthchick had a good point. If you can't say it in person, don't say it anonymously. (That goes for driving, too!)
The problem I see with the room full of shit is this: do you really want to be accustomed to a roomful of shit? Yes, it would be nice to be so thick-skinned that meanness doesn't hurt you, but doesn't that take away some of the good experiences too? I'm not sure I want to be that desensitized.
Anyway, if your blog is something that bothers me, I wouldn't waste my time reading it. I get something out of it by coming here, so I choose to spend my time here. It wastes your time AND mine if I come here only to judge you unworthy and tell you all about it. Seems like we'd both have better things to do.

Very well stated!!!

As others have said it's your blog and you should be able to blog about what ever you wish to share with the world.

I have had one negative comment on my blog and after reading it and re-reading the post, I removed the post for they were right and I was wrong.

People are entitled to their opinions, however, I come from the school of if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all.

Thanks for sharing with us. I really enjoy reading your blog and love all of your knitting projects.

hugs,K

Well said Cara! The blog world is so like the real world--why do people cut you off when driving? Why do they run to get in line in front of you at the cafe? There will always be people who thrive on meanness and nastiness and unfortunately, they will always be able to affect the people around them. I try to believe in Karma--I try to sit back and think about how their Karma will be affected by their actions (or comments). I also try to think about how my Karma will be affected by my reaction to their bad behavior. As my father loves to say, "What goes around, comes around".....Way to go for putting this out there!

I'm usually a "lurker" on your blog, Cara - but your post is calling me out today.

I love your blog. You're articulate. Your photography is beautiful. You reference books you are reading, music you are listening to, and share your life with us. Admittedly, I don't see myself becoming as enthralled with miters as you are. That doesn't mean I can't take something from your blog right now. The way you play with color and your enthusiasm...I've been there - just with a different project :-)

The Yarn Harlot says that blogs are like livingrooms. We are invited into your livingroom. Just like any good guest, we're expected to behave in a courteous and respectful manner towards our hostess.

My first thought is that if someone don't like a blog, don't visit it. It's really that simple. If you do feel that you must comment, keep in mind that there's a difference between criticism and just plain old being mean. Criticism is constructive. It's not personal, and it's usually said in a civil and thoughtful manner.

I'm not sure how I feel about a "Code of Conduct" for blogs. On the one hand, I think a blog is sort of an online journal and who should tell anyone what to write in their own journal? That smacks of censorship and homogenization. While I don't agree with everything in life that's out there, I do appreciate the diversity and originality of life. I just don't have to sample every dish that's out there. However, I do believe that a line is crossed when threats are made, or someone Photoshops a picture of you into something that isn't true. A certain standard of integrity is expected.

Cara - it's your blog. It's your livingroom. Miter on!

Blog reading is the same to me as listening to the radio or watching TV or going to see a movie - if you don't like something you see/hear/read, don't do it anymore! I have stumbled across blogs that I haven't liked the feel of, that I haven't revisited. Blog reading is something I do to check out what other projects people are working on, what fibers they're spinning, what books they're reading. I came to your blog from someone else's, I'm sure (actually, yeah, sheepfeathers.blogspot.com) and liked what I saw. Your photography is inspiring, your knit projects are beautiful, and so what if you're anxious and crazy? Me too! We'd probably be great buddies! Reading your blog has made me realize that I like blogs that share a little peek of what people's lives are like. It's the voyeur in me. I want my blog to be more like that. So what if I don't like some of the ways a blogger lives - not my life, not my problem. I don't have the time to worry about it!

Anonymity is definitely a bad thing in a lot of cases - if you're saying something you don't want to admit you're saying, you probably shouldn't be saying it. But these things you've already covered, and more eloquently than I. I think it's probably a good idea you didn't welcome the bad comments, too - people have too much capacity for cruelness, especially in such an anonymous setting. But thank you for bringing it to light!

Not only did you make an excellent and elegant point in an excellent and elegant way, but you also closed with the quote from God Bless You, Mr. Rosewater that hangs in my cubicle (and which I've been looking at almost nonstop since hearing the news about Kurt Vonnegut). There's so much I'd like to say right now, but it all becomes redundant after "Thank you, Cara," so I will just say "Thank you, Cara," and leave it at that.

(((((applause)))))))for your very well written post. I, for one, am quite often astonished that my experiences in blogland parallel my experiences with people in real life. People have disliked me in life for the same reasons they dislike me in blogland. Oh well. I am who I am, and I'm going to say what I feel needs to be said. If one feels the need to hit the "unsubscribe" button, because of something I post, or how I respond in a comment, which may have been well-intended but poorly put, or because I'm clearly a liberal, and one of those hated attorneys, there's nothing that I can, or will do in response.

As for a "code of conduct," I fear that I, for one, would probably feel stifled by the imposition of rules. I tend to subscribe to the "golden rule," as well as a rule from my father: Save your reactionary comments for your relatives.

I think that I will continue to find blogging fascinating. Thanks, Cara, for contributing to make it so!

I'm glad that you didn't do the negative comment thing. I can't see much good coming out of that.

I'm reminded of an experience I had once at an airport. The guy behind me in the security line was *really* crowding my personal space. I was getting annoyed and started to feel a little hostile. And then I noticed that he was wearing a hat very much like the one my dad wears. In fact, he was about the same age and looked a lot like my dad. I started to think about how I would feel if some twenty-something girl was hostile to my dad, and it made not feel so hostile to the nice man behind me.

I try to think about this when I'm reading blogs. The women (mostly) behind the blog are people a lot like me, or like my good friends. I'm forgiving of myself and my friends when we mess up-- I should be of others too.

You have me worried and second guessing - was it my comment about channeling Sol LeWitt? Me and my sarcastic mouth. I totally hear you Cara - I just wrote a post yesterday in response to a comment a person left on another blog - people can be so horrible and with emails and comments they are shielded from any immediate accountability.

And as far as judging, it is something I have thought about too. How one presents oneself in the real world - you only see what the person wants to see. The clothes they wear, how they speak, how they carry themselves, all a construct both unconscious and conscious, somethings with in their control, others not. But blogging is like a further remove - the construct is all self-manufactured, what you see is what I choose to put put, post, upload.

I adore your candor. I am a fellow non-daily showerer and that post about no-dinner-dog-shitting-in-the-front-hall, is still with me. People wonder how I knit or make so much gosh-durned stuff - well things suffer or slide, priorities shift and well you did put it best.

I'm an MFAer too, though from the poetry realm and you learn pretty quick, workshop after workshop, it is all about decorum and check your ego at the front door. Take care.

It's hard to come up with something original to say, after 1) your very well-thought-out and well-written post, and 2) all of the well-thought-out and well-written comments that came before mine. :)

I guess what I want to say is that I read your blog daily, and marvel at your skills and laugh when you screw up because you laugh when you screw up (also because I would have probably screwed up worse). I read your blog and peek into your life a little bit because you're so different from me, but still a little bit like me. But differing tastes and personalities are no reason to shred someone, especially on their blog. It takes all kinds to make the world go 'round, right? Except for the puppy-kicking kind. We can do without those.

I get annoyed when people act according to their basest inclinations just because they have the veil of anonymity--which doesn't mean that I haven't ever flipped off a particularly jerky driver on the road, but I generally try to conduct myself in a manner that wouldn't make my mother cringe. It seems that some people don't. And for that I am sorry.

And while it sometimes feels pointless to be nice to people when other people are just jerks, and it seems like it just keeps "going around" but never quite gets to "coming around", I guess that's where either faith or a incredible sense of self-superiority comes into play. I guess.

So much for brevity. :)

Excellent post! This whole issue is, sadly, one of the main reasons I don't yet have a blog. I don't have a very tough skin when it comes to meanness. You've raised some very delicate points in a very articulate way, and given me a lot to think about. I generally subscribe to the Harlot's idea that the comments space is like the blogger's living room. How many of those commenters would still have the gall to say those comments in a live, face-to-face setting, I wonder?

But I don't know if a code of conduct is the right answer, either. People blog for different reasons. A while back, I was thinking about reconnecting with some old friends through their blogs, when one day all their blogs (about 5 or 6) went private, and I no longer had any way of contacting them. This was a group of girls I'd known from high school, and the incident (to me) smacked of cliquishness. My gut reaction was something along the lines of "Oh I see, I'm not allowed in your special club." I was a bit offended until I realized that they probably had reasons for setting their blogs to private that had nothing whatsoever to do with me (especially since I hadn't spoken with them in 6 years). I like to think of myself as a fairly optimistic, easy-going person, but my initial reaction was very negative. The fact that I was ready to open up to these people again and put myself in a vulnerable position emotionally meant that my walls were all the more ready to spring back up at the smallest perceived threat.

I think that we mostly sit here reading these blogs in our homes (sometimes in our pajamas) and we're deep in our personal comfort zone, and that means the emotional defenses are cocked and at the ready to protect that comfort zone. In the midst of that, we forget that we're also deep in someone else's comfort zone, their blog, and it's not wrong for them to expect politeness. Thanks for your post, and I'm also glad you didn't do the negative comments day. I've seen so much friendship and kindness on these knitting blogs. I, for one, don't really want to know what people online are capable of on the other end of the spectrum.

As I read blogs mostly in stolen moments at work, or after a long day, I rarely comment or read comments to a post, and I never read someone's blog if I don't enjoy it and feel inspired afterward. In this way, I suppose I've insulated myself from the hateful people out there, but I've also preserved the good will I feel toward the blogosphere.
However, there ARE hateful people or nice people who say hateful things...and that's life. It is wrong and unnecessary for people to act in this way...but they WILL act in this way, code of conduct or not. I'm certainly NOT saying we, as a community, should accept it, just as we wouldn't accept a disrespectful child. But when a child's disrespectful, we don't take it personally and we tell them it's not acceptable. This, I'm afraid, is all we can do with mean commenters...have these discussions, tell them it's unacceptable, but chalk it up to THEIR issues, not ours, and move on in our community, continuing to share and create friendships.

Cara,

Blogged this at BlogHer and invited the conversation to continue there.. with a personal confession in the comments.

Thank you for writing this and taking the "high road" in the discussion.

It looks like (unless I've misread) you changed your mind about inviting a negativity free-for-all. I am glad for this. It can be easy enough for someone to indulge in negativity, meanness, and pettiness without encouragement. The more often one engages in this type of behavior, the easier it becomes. There is opportunity for growth and improvement from being critiqued. However, it is probably not the best idea to ask others to fill us in on our every fault, mistake, or annoying idiosyncrasy. It is an easy way to get an inaccurate view of life. People might tell us things that they would not normally have told us in order to comply with a request. That criticism may not have been important enough to mention, but when put on the spot, they share. It gives a skewed view of other people's opinions.

This makes me think of one wishing to be able to read minds. While this could be useful sometimes, more often, it will only cause more troubles. As you have written, we all have less than lovely thoughts cross our minds, even in reference to lovely people about whom we care very much. These thoughts do not reflect the way we feel overall. However, if we could read minds, those things would hurt. It is far too easy to pick on ourselves and feel less than stellar without asking people to let us know any way in which we are not their ideal.

Those who care about us and want to help us grow and improve will let us know things in a constructive way when they think it will be helpful. Sometimes they will see something and keep quiet because they know it is not the right time to say anything, and it would not be of help.

It is true that exposing yourself to an abundance of criticisms could possibly help you to be less sensitive just as sitting in filth could desensitize you to its odor. If you need to be less sensitive, then I hope you work on this area. However, becoming too desensitized is not good, either. It is good to not allow our hearts to be hardened. It is also interesting that you have equated the invitation to fill your comment section to having your room filled with vile filth. Is it something you really want to be so used to that its stench no longer registers? It is not healthy to be covered in feces. Now, I only know you from what you have written on your blog, but I do not think you would invite someone to defecate on you. Why would you ask others to commit such an act in the form of comments?

I would also be hesitant about asking for criticisms if I were not ready to make changes in myself. I am not a fan of someone asking for my view and then seeing it disregarded. I am working to listen for when people are truly asking for feedback before I offer my thoughts. I also look to be sure that I only ask for the feedback of others when I am ready to heed the advice of another. I look to be sure that I seek the counsel of the wise, rather than the population at large. We do not know what seeds we are asking to be planted in our hearts and minds. All that manure can be a powerful fertilizer.

It think it is very good that you are examining the various motives you had for considering putting out this invitation. It will probably yield you with better results than anything others could have written.

I hope this makes sense. I find this topic quite interesting, and I hope you find what I have written to be relevant. I am glad you chose to first seek the advice through email of trusted friends before posting the idea to the rest of us.

You mention that you have been experiencing some negativity here on your blog and elsewhere. This saying comes to mind, "Don't wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and the pig likes it."

Be well.

Pity the poor people who have no vocation in their lives for which they feel passion. They are jealous that you are excited by the work you are doing to complete your blanket. They are starved for something about which they can feel as enthusiastic and instead of finding that thing (gardening? pottery? anything creative?) they lash out at you. Ignore them. There are far more of us who share your love of color and texture and pattern. Miter on.

Let's face it, we only know about a blogger what the blogger writes about him/herself. If I like or don't like a blogger, that opinion is based on what he/she has chosen to write about. It's only a part of the story. Are there blogs that bug me? Yep, and then I stop reading. Are there bloggers that I THINK I'd like to hang out with and drink coffee and knit with all day? Sure, but I could be wrong once I got to KNOW him/her beyond what I think I know from the blog.

There is a difference between criticism and being cruel. Each of us who blogs is creating a public persona to an extent, so we are opening ourselves up to whatever may come at us. It's part of the tradeoff for sharing (or oversharing.) Nonetheless, personal, vindictive comments are a product of those who are -- by the very fact that those opinions are based on a partial representation of of someone's life -- underinformed. Every blogger self-edits.

It's hard, but let it roll off your back. Take pleasure in your choices. Who cares if you would rather knit all day than take a shower. (No one can smell through a blog!!) I think that blogging is a bit of a self-indugence (at least I feel it is for me), so if someone criticizes me or another blogger for being self-indulgent, it comes with the teritory. What you do for fun and relaxation should not be a source of consternation. The majority of people who read your blog get some form of benefit from it--so keep doing it for yourself knowing that everything else is gravy!

Cara, great post. It was eye-opening for me, as I had been unaware that bloggers' lives were being threatened. I am still fuzzy on all of it - what the whole story is and frankly, I'm completely befuddled at what could make someone anonymous threaten death for something another anonymous person has written.

I wish I understood the story better - will have to dig a little deeper later this evening when I have the time.

But for now, with my limited understanding, I will just simply say this: I am a writer. I will write freely and without fear of what others will do to me or say of me. Period. If someone wants to hurt me, they will find a way. All I can do is protect myself as best as I can physically and emotionally.

Perhaps it is because I don't have that many readers outside of my small group of friends and some family members, but I've never encountered a rude or threatening remark before. I can't understand going to another knitblogger's site and thinking cruel or judgmental thoughts about their handiwork. Perhaps it's because I'm a new knitter and any project I finish feels like such an accomplishment. I don't understand the judging. If I don't particularily enjoy looking at crocheted afghans, then I don't usually return to their site, if that's their thing, but I'm not judging what they are making. It's just not my style of eye candy.

*sigh* This is all so seventh grade. I'm utterly perplexed by the idea of it all.

My best answer to your questions is 'I don't know!' ;)
I think you're a fantastic person and you have an excellent amount of maturity and grace to be interested in constructive criticism. I haven't reached that point yet in the blogosphere except in small specific doses, and mostly I like the idea that the knitting blogosphere exists for positive support - i.e. help wiht skills, technique, learning, inspiration, creativity, consolation, general words of wisdom, humour, and ideas. The blogs I read most often are the ones that contribute these things to the interwebs and my day always feels more enriched as a result. If I were to go on a 24-hour commenting spree, I'd rather it be to find the good in people's blogs rather than the critical. (and I know that criticism can be positive, I do...but it's hard, when you don't know the person or the tone of voice...)

I can honestly say I have never encountered a code of conduct on a blog, but I think that's a decision individual bloggers would have to make for themselves. If a blog generates enough traffic and enough consternation, yes, by all means, set ground rules. But so far in my small portion of the knit blogosphere I haven't felt the need other than to just remind people to be respectful.

This is a great discussion to be kicking off, and I imagine if we were all in a room together we could talk about it in really interesting ways for days! You are so brilliant.

Of all the points there are to make, I'll make just one because it's one that's really important to me.

I think we've all been sold an idea that if we have a feeling, we need to "let it out" or else it's going to "build up and all come out at some point". I think we've been sold a bill of goods on that one, because it leaves a really important thing out. We all want to be understood -- seen and heard, and really understood. If we are just "letting it out" without thinking about the effect on the person who is hearing it, it actually doesn't get anyone anywhere. It's not "more" honest if it just spews out thoughtlessly. It is so much more meaningful and there are so many more possibilities for talking about differences if we think about *the way* we're speaking, not just *that* we're speaking.

When we speak, it's a relational act. With the stresses of daily living and the constant focus on individuals, I think that has really been forgotten.

I look forward to continued discussions about this. Thanks for being willing to stick your neck out, Cara.

I admit, I don't often read comments on other peoples' blogs, because I haven't got the time or inclination or the desire to get involved in flame wars or listen to a hundred "yeah!"s. I consider blog comments a personal communication from me to the blog owner that just so happens to take place on the web.

As for calling on people to be mean, I think that's a bad idea. People can be extraordinarily cruel when cloaked with the same anonymity afforded by their cars, and nobody needs that.

I love you because you're a little crazy, just like me, and you make the most beautiful knits and photos that I've ever had the pleasure of feasting my eyes on.

I didn't read this whole entry, children interrupted , but wanted to comment. KEEP the Miters coming I love seeing your color combos and your inspirations, I love it, don't stop. In the words of Dori, "Keep on swimming, keep on swimming, keep on swimming, swimming, swimming." Or maybe that should be mitering :D

This is your blog after all.
S

Holy cow I'm at work and kinda skimmed that but i got to the meat of it.

A) it's awful people wrote such nasty things to you or anyone else

B) have you seen message boqards on the internet latley?? and I mean ones not as well regulated as knitty.com's. I have been on some pregnancy onces latley with girls trying to consive and other stuff going on and people are so freakin harsh and imature it's insane.

As the internet gets bigger, more and more people have access to it. Uneducated people, rude people, ignorant people. I'm not saying those people wern't on before, but it's like now the whole world has access, so you get a much more diverse pool of people. I think the whole internet is falling apart personally, not like in a doomed sense but I think you get my point.

People can say things over email and in anon comments that they would NEVER say outloud, and I don't care if they say they would, 90% of the time they would NOT.

It's back to manners and old school duh stuff, if you don't have something nice to say don't say it at all.

People knit stuff all the time I think is ugly, but thats my personal opinion, why on earth would I go say it to them and bring THEM down, what in the world could motivate me to do that except to make myself feel "bigger" and "better". I keep nasty thoughts to myself, I'm human and I have them.

You are a high profile blogger, you ARE a celebrity. Go get star magazine, it's just par for the course and it's sad but it's how what our society does to "well known" or "successful" people. It's the nature of the beast, luckily not everyone out there is like that

Chin up girl, you rock.

Although I've read entries on blogs where I've been tempted to say something mean, I click away before I can. Because what would the point be? To make someone feel like shit? To ruin their day to make myself feel better because I'm feeling snarky? What it comes down to is this: if I won't say it to their face, I won't say it in their comments. End of story.

I have a small blog audience and sometimes I get to feeling bad about it, but then I remember that with more readers comes the opportunities for more trolls. That always makes me feel better.

holy crap I type and spell awful, hehe sorry :)

Delurking to tell you that I really enjoy your writing, whether it be about knitting or whatever you put out there. If I didn't, I would simply stop reading. It's as simple as that.

I haven't read through all the comments yet, so someone may already have made this point. I think that we are all learning as we go along. I'm sure that most bloggers have made mistakes or written posts that they regret. Okay. I'VE written a post I regret as I mentioned the other day on my blog.

My point is that blogging and the online communities are a relatively new territory. There will be mis-steps along the way and that is okay (Of course, nothing excuses the threats and implied violence towards the blogger you mentioned). I think it's important to have discussions like this----civil discussions without the "my way or the highway" attitude often found---so we all learn how to navigate the blogworld. Newer bloggers can learn from the mistakes made by the seasoned bloggers.

I heartily agree with the think before you post "rule".

Knitbloggers who annoy me are few and far between--I mean, I'm used to people having different taste, different situations, and different capabilities. I don't have the energy to get angry about any of that.

Paradoxically, the one thing that really makes me angry is when people are the *same* as me behave badly on their knitting blogs. Specifically, academic women. I mean, for pete's sake, you've got a Ph.D. but you aren't smart enough to engage in the discourse properly and in good taste or at least behave like an adult?!?!?! You're making us all look bad! Aiiieeeee can't handle it!

So I take them off my bloglines list, to spare myself the aggravation. And my own blog isn't a "knitting" blog per se...

It's an interesting idea but I'm so fucking sensitive I couldn't take it, even from my 6 readers;) It's funny I'm very hard to offend but very easy to hurt. I hate putting negativity on the blog or in someone's comments. There are many occasions where someone has posted something and I've said to myself, "well there goes that bloglines subscription" otherwise I don't see a need to call someone out on something I personally don't like or agree with.

The more popular a blog gets the more negativity there is out there about it for whatever reason, ego of the blogger, envy of their thousands of readers whatever but it serves no purpose. I don't think we should need to have a code of conduct. If you don't like it, don't read it. Very simple.

I enjoyed your essay. :) I am also mystified at the level of hatred and malevolence exhibited by some people, and I have come to this conclusion: it is not a rational thing. These people are angry and vicious and they are taking all of their hatred out on any target that has piqued their vitriol for some reason. This is where I think your essay may break down a little. You are approaching the question in a rational manner and trying to understand people's motivations, while those hyper negative people about whom you write are anything but rational. I, myself, was the target of a particularly vicious attack on a private knitting list, as well as being harassed and threatened by phone, email and blog comments. It is still difficult to accept because the perpetrator was so completely convinced that she was in the right and I had done something worthy of that treatment. And therein lies the issue: the people capable of these attacks are absolutely positive that they are right in doing whatever they do, no matter what it is, and no matter how hurtful. They are equally sure that anything you say or do by way of defending yourself (or ignoring it as I did) is a vicious and unprovoked attack on them, no matter how rational or calm you may be. And that is the problem with asking people to give you criticism. Spiteful people will participate as well. Have you ever heard the saying that 5 minutes of negativity takes 24 hours to overcome? Do you want to be overcoming all that negativity for the next 20 years? Sometimes, ignorance truly *is* bliss. You always know that not everyone can like or even tolerate you. That is just the way the world works. But having such ugliness thrust in your face is a different experience altogether. It becomes *real* in a way for which, no matter how rational you may think you are, you can never be totally prepared.

The more well-known you become, the more conversation and notice you spark, both positive and negative. The alternative is playing it completely safe and never being noticed.

Okay, that's my ramble for the morning! Thanks for a thought-provoking post!

If something on a blog rubs me the wrong way, I just unsubscribe from reading it. I don't need everyones cyber negativity and online drama in my life. My life is better without it.

It is a brave thing to write a blog - you really open yourself up to quite a lot. This is one reason I don't have one - I wouldn't feel secure about sharing my personal life with the world, and sharing one's personal life is what makes a blog interesting. I lose interest in a knitting blog with no personal details in it, whereas I will overlook knitting I do not find thrilling to follow a good writer's daily ups and downs - it's performance art of the most intimate kind. So bravo to you for writing an excellent blog. And as for meaningful things to do with your time and money? Living vicariously through other people's knitting and then saying mean things about it has to be the biggest waste of precious time and energy that I have ever heard of.

I really admire your ability to (very publicly) look at the things that you may be struggling with, the things you believe in, and the things that will make you grow.
I am not so sure that I could do that... but I admire you for putting it out there.
I think that may be what gets people that may slam you or criticize others harshly. The ability to look at one's self and take the comments... the good, the bad, and the ugly, is to be admired.

I know Earthchick already said something similar but it bears repeating: If I don't have the balls to say it to your face or put my name to it it probably doesn't need to be said.

I try my best to keep my blog positive, even though I am human, and in my "real" life I can be critical of things I shouldn't be. I just don't bring it to my blog because I know I don't enjoy reading it on others. If a blog becomes too mean for me, I just stop reading it.

I can handle constructive criticism, but making it personal is just wrong. We don't know enough about the lives behind the blogs to make any kind of judgements.

It's an interesting and topical discussion, and it's something that I have thought about a bit in the past. As Margene pointed out, there have been flareups of the issue at times, just like a flareup in arthritis or gout or something, I suppose.

I suppose at some other time, I might have a lot to say about it, but at this moment in my life, this topic is failing to feel relevant or important to me, so I can't rustle up the energy to care.

Must be I'm too happy or focused on other things. Now someone will probably see it as their job to make me miserable or pissed off. Heh.

An excellent post, comments too. It's a shame that this is even an issue, but unfortunately its not surprising. I work in a yarn shop and hear quite a bit of snarky commentary from the 'ladies who lunch' in the shop on a regular basis. This cuts across all demographics; age, race, sex, money...

There's always an undercurrent of insecure superiority at play among those who snark, whether online or in person. It always makes me a little sad to be the presence of such negativity, when there's a world of creativity and joy surrounding our craft.

On a good note, I pulled up your blog yesterday at work to show a woman who was interested in making the mitred squares from M/D Knitting, and she was blown away by your use of color. She just loved it!!

I'm not a mitre-maker, as I'm currently being bitten by another 'bug', but I understand and appreciate your passion for an all consuming project. The mitres are beautiful and remind me of the crazy quilt my husband's grandmother made for him, that covers our bed.

Keep going Cara. There's too much beauty and interest out here in blog-land to cave to the trolls. Besides, It's always good to know somebody else out there is a crazy and unwashed as me!!

Some people get a kick out of being mean. They were the bullies in school and they're the snarky posters/commenters now. Whether it stems from their unhappiness or psychosis is not my concern. I choose to ignore them on the web just as I try to ignore them in person. I definitely would not invite them to fill a room with shit because you'd end up with a houseful!

I understand wanting to use reason and respect as arguments against such behavior, but I'm afraid the people you're talking to aren't listening. I don't think it's IN them to listen, you know?

I guess the thing that perplexes me is why some bloggers are targeted. I have been blogging for three years, and before that was active in many forums, groups for at least 5 years. On my own blog, I have never received an ugly comment. I have received one (and only one) comment offering constructive criticism. It took me a little while to realize that it was actually constructive though, so it is kind of a gray area... I have received some not-so-nice comments on Flickr about some of my photos, but those are easily deleted and recognized for the stupid "trolls" that they are. Thankfully, I haven't heard anything bad about my writing and my knitting. I am glad too, as I have a thin skin. I need to work on that.

Yet, I have a good friend who has attracted a LOT of criticism in recent days. Nasty and mean comments, alongside constructive criticism. I just don't get it. Blogs are a SLICE of life. Some people choose to share more than others. It is not the reader's right or duty to just make assumptions about things that are not discussed on someone's blog.

okay, okay. maybe your feet aren't ugly. but I bet they stink.

Hey! I didn't get an email from you... *fake quivery lip* :D (jus' kidding)

I think that in the Blogosphere I tend to fall into the same category that I do in real life - somehow I just don't see a lot of the negativity (the "shit throwing" if you will) directed at others, and either I don't attract a lot of it, or I just don't notice it about myself (I can be pretty oblivious that way...) So I'm usually shocked and sickened when someone lets loose with a judging, malicious comment or post about another person (especially another knitter, for dog's sake!)

Constructive criticism, civilly-expressed disagreement, or thoughtful arguments are not only valid, but essential to discussions (as opposed to monologues,) and what are blogs if now a forum for discussion? Bashing is a form of self-stroking, of ending the conversation before it starts. From my own perspective, I appreciate, sometimes even genuinely enjoy, reading/seeing/hearing those lives and opinions which are polar opposites of my own. I welcome that in my own life, in a non-judging, open-minded way. Not that I'm some Pollyanna, or that I walk around singing "Kumbaya" all day, but it's been quite some time since I realized that a) I am not the only person in the world with an opinion, and b) my way of seeing and moving through the world is not invalidated if someone else does it better/worse/differently than me. If someone makes me angry with their words or actions, it's completely legitimate emotion, and there are reasonable ways to deal with it. And hey, at least they moved me somehow! I might just learn something about myself and/or the world!

Perhaps part of that is being able to look back and see how much my own personality, life, and views have changed over the years, and how that is a perpetual result of my interactions with other human beings. I can't entirely discount a person who is simply on a different leg of the journey than I am. I'm not going to become ridiculously infuriated by a difference - even I think the world would be unstimulating beyone belief if everyone was exactly like me!
Whew, guess I did have something to say - thanks for oiling the gears!

I wanted to say something about this but am having trouble formulating my thoughts. So instead, I have a quote from a webcomic which I am trying to take to heart:

"People seem to think that by posting in threads and agreeing with other people they are changing the world. They are not. They are posting in threads online. The universe will not be altered by forum threads, even those which are very wry. Being outraged online is a form of entertainment, and refreshing a thread to receive a hit of consensus packs the thrill of genuine activism without requiring any sweat. I'm afraid this test may require more from the community than a sardonic jpeg." -- penny-arcade.com, Tycho

(Incidentally he is in no way talking about anything to do with knitting, or rude comments, but I agree with the core idea: sometimes we take what people say on line too seriously, and mistake talking for action.)

Sigh. This makes me sad for you. I really like your blog.
I'm not really into cursing, but I guess this occasion calls for it.

I don't think filling a 'room with shit' is a good solution. Even though you get used to a smell and stop noticing it, it is still there and you'll be up to your eyebrows in it. It will still poison because it is shit. And it is supposed to be gone. That's way we have handles on the commode!

In my opinion, if people want to shit let them do it in their own rooms. Maybe, like Carole said, they'll eventually find a pony!

I just don't understand what drives people to attack so quickly. If I don't like a blog, whether it is the writing, the projects or the opinions...I simply don't read it anymore. Drop it from my Bloglines. Never click their link again. Problem solved.

If you don't like a seafood restaurant because fish doesn't appeal to you, do you bash it and set out to ruin them even though the food is cooked perfectly well, and the service is good. The fact that you don't like seafood doesn't give you the right to unload negativity on them for their daring to prepare food you don't like. You simply don't eat there and hit your local burger joint instead.

What gain is had by me bashing them because in *my* opinion they are distasteful for some reason. When they have never said anything directly against me? When they aren't hurting anyone? Defending yourself is one thing. These kind of comments are not a defense - they're just mean for no reason.

And the people who blog for the purpose of negativity? That's fine. That's their perogative. Sometimes they can be funny. Unless they are actually threatening someone or breaking a law in some way, they can opine all they want. I have no obligation need to read it or agree. Nor do I have an obligation to comment for the sake of leaving a dig.

When I meet people in real life that exude nothing but negativity (assuming they aren't threatening someone...I'm talking general negative vibe people), I could either fight them, or cut them out of my life as much as possible. The latter is far more healthy.

I'm lucky in that I can't think of any particularly negative comments ever left on my blog. I would hope that if someone doesn't like something I've pictured, they'd be mature and human enough to write me a civil email to discuss what is bugging them. Not just leave a hit-and-run burn when they've never met me and what they don't like has nothing to do with my character.

Brava...and the Vonnegut quote really sums it up nicely.

I'm sure others have already said something similar, but I can't resist stating the obvious...if people don't like a certain blog, they should stop reading it. Nasty comments are dumb. They serve no valid purpose. Do nasty commenters think they are going to change someone's mind by spewing acidic remarks anonymously online? I love reading respectfully worded differences of opinion...debates are great. But I'll never understand the motivation behind hate-filled remarks to a blog. I really can't "empathize" and get into their minds and figure out where they are coming from...because wherever that is, I don't want to go there.

Hi Cara, I've said it before and I'll say it again: I think you are incredibly brave for the things you are willing to say and the topics you're willing to cover on your blog. I really admire your courage.

Sometimes, my husband gets on the political blogs and gets drawn into discussions which turn hateful and thick-headed very fast. He always feels worse for it and wonders why he lets himself go there. We talk about how that is the norm in most of the blogosphere and marvel at how different the knit blogs are. Because mostly the knit blog community is kind and respectful. Even when we disagree.

I once saw something (discovery channel maybe?) about road rage. The theory was that without face-to-face human interaction, people assume the worst about each other and go to the darkest places of their anger. If you physically bump into someone on the street, there's usually that little moment of apology. There's a little head nod, shoulder slump, a wry smile or even a kind word to smooth everything over. But when those very subtle, but hugely important, elements of non-verbal communication get stripped away, it seems that all that's left is the anger. So the theory goes that when you almost hit someone with you're car, it turns into honking, yelling and profane hand gestures. Very different than bodies on the street.

I think the same theory applies to blogging. I think, from the safety of a computer, people feel free to say things they might not if they were face-to-face. I also think without the non-verbal parts of communication, misunderstandings spring up very easily and it becomes easy to assume the worst.

I tend to be a little shy. In pretty much all areas of my life, I'd rather say nothing than the wrong wrong thing. Sometimes that's good, other times, not so much. I try to conduct myself with the golden rule in mind. But I know there are times when I've failed to do so.

Social etiquette and rules of conduct can be hard to draw and nearly impossible to enforce. They tend to be organic and changeable. Think how differently society bahaves now than 100 years ago. Blogging is so new, the "rules" are still evolving. Or devolving as the case may be. Unfortunately, I just don't think it's the type of thing where you really could have any great success in trying to establish and maintain guidelines. If anything, it might just get people even more riled up.

In the Yarn Harlot's new book, she says a good guideline for how to behave in the online knitting community is not to write anything in a public forum, you wouldn't say into a microphone in an auditorium. I think that's a great way of thinking about it. However, I'm sure there are people who won't behave that way.

But we can still hope for the best.

Thanks for the discussion!

I really appreciate the thought, time & energy you put into writing this. I share many of your feelings/reactions/perceptions and while not so many people read my blog, I agree with your reaction to negative, non-constructive comments. It's too bad the world is populated with so many people who are unhappy, or don't have the tools/skills to communicate constructively. The parallel to the workplace is immense, though of course it's different when you're doing something for fun & getting picked at, vs. doing something for a paycheck and being told to do it differently. I guess the reason I'm drawing the parallel is because when you have that good manager/boss who can tell you what you're doing well, and what you could do to make your performance even better? It's easier to hear, and understand, and appreciate that they're coming from a place to help/assist, not just shitting all over you. And ultimately, it's still your choice if you're going to do those things or not. Twenty years working, and every year, I'm going to get "being more organized" as an action item.
In the spirit of bucking my own norms, I think I'll clean my desk off this afternoon. Thanks again for writing this. Hopefully a light bulb went off out there, even just one makes it worth it!

I think you've said a lot of good things here, Cara, and clearly you've sparked an interesting and intelligent dialogue. I think that many of us are thinking more or less the same thing -- what use comes out of being mean? I would hope that we would remember how to behave the way we did in kindergarten, when we were taught to treat others the way we would want to be treated (and also to share and to say please and thank you).

I would say, based upon my observations, that the vast majority of us in the knitblog world are pretty good to one another -- cheering each other on, congratulating each other, helping each other. How many times have you heard of a knitblogger who's had a tragedy or illness or some other hardships, and others have sent them yarn, or hand-knit blankets, or chocolate? In general, as a community, I think we are caring and supportive.

That said, there are always people out there who will put us down. Maybe it arises from low self-esteem and the need to be superior; perhaps it's just plain meanness. Regardless, I think we need to keep in mind the hundreds of positive comments we collectively receive for every one or two negative comments.

Nicely Put. I must admit you talked me down again. I was having a bad day & wanted to take it out on everyone around me. I try to remember what my Dad allways said " If you have nothing nice to say Keep your mouth shut" Since I'm human that doesn't always work. I just wish that we spent more time reminding the next generation, and this one & the last one of that one rule. Thanks for this post. Now I'm gonna go read the rest of the comments. Thanks again
Tami

I've been quietly trying to promote constructive criticism through thoughtful comments for some time now. Your current post has shown me that some bloggers appreciate it. Thanks. Next time, I'll try to have the courage to stand with my conviction and say it a public space.

I appreciate what you said about blogging and I also think it's great how personal you are on your blog, it's hard thing to share yourself and be so open with such a wide audience, but I think it's awesome that you have in the process, made me feel a part of your world, even though I don't know you in person! I would have to agree about a code of conduct being counter productive. In reality, a large majority of people participating in the blogosphere know what is poor behavior and what isn't. And if they choose to get nasty in comments, they are already going against what they know deep down to be impolite and just plain not nice, so a code of conduct isn't going to be much help anyway. Just like in the real world, we just have to deal with some nasty people, in bloglandia, but hopefully instead of allowing those nasty people to get to us, it can be an opportunity to rise above their bad behavior and show some grace and maturity. Aside from that, thanks for your quote from God Bless You Mr. Rosewater, I heard the news about Kurt Vonnegut's death when my alarm went off, I haven't read any other of his books besides GBYMR, but I loved it! And thanks for your compliment to Robby on my blog! I love his belly too :) Very munchable.

I think it is good to think about and discuss these issues. Thank you for bringing it up and speaking so openly about what you feel. I appreciate that you are sharing you thought process and that it is a work in progress (in that you haven't decided how to deal with this yet).

I wouldn't participate in a criticism day because I believe that negativity reinforces negativity. It may lead people to think it is okay to extend that criticism to other posts because, hey, you said it was okay on x date.

Don't get me wrong, I am not a Pollyanna. I like to be challenged to be a better person in all the forms that takes in my life. And, I am grateful for the people who tell me about mistakes in my knitting patterns. Does that mean I want to encouage people to find flaws in me? No. I prefer to focus on the glass as half full. As I become a more positive person, I become a happier person. I want to support that process.

As for rules, that is tough. I find that people who follow rules are the ones that would be respectful in the first place (unless it was some form of ignorance). Having rules may push the non-respectful people to more extreme behavior. I recall that being my reaction when I was a rebellious teenager and wanted to hurt people's feelings. Am I saying that mean/rude commenters are immature? Yes, I am. I have said mean things in the past and probably will again. I don't like myself when I do it and I strive to not be that person. I have never said anything deliberately nasty on-line though.

I have seen a related issue in forums, blogs, and emails: a comment that is misinterpretted. Without facial expressions and intonation, it is easy to read things wrong. I try to be kind when I read things that sound odd, and I hope that others extend that courtesy to me as well.

I'm relatively new to knitting and blogging for that matter. Even if there are items that I don't care for, think are ugly, or in bad taste; I don't feel the need to make someone else feel bad about it. There's enough negativity in the world. If I don't like, so what? Isn't that the point of diversity, opinions, personalities? There wouldn't be new patterns, new yarns, new colors in the world every day. Who else should care if you're knitting nothin' but miters? They've chosen to visit your blog, without a price to them. Who else should care how much any one of us spends on our hobbies? Whether you donate/give elsewhere or not is not my (or anyone else's) business. In my opinion, knitters happen to be very generous people. At the end of the day, can we live with ourselves, our choices, and our comments? I may not always be fair, just, and kind, but then I learn from it and become a better person. Long story short - miter on until your heart's content!

Dittoing Earthchick. The first to say it here, and most succinctly.

The "blogosphere" is simply a cross-section of society. If it's out there in real life, it's online as well.

Anonymity is a powerful thing. It's the shot of testicular fortitude that many lack. Not having the cojones to say it to someone's face? Get 'em where you don't have to face them.

Nastiness is part of the human animal, unfortunately, and it can't be codified away. I would that it could. Thankfully, most humans don't choose to show that face publicly, or online.

For what it's worth, you and I might not agree on everything, but I wouldn't miss hearing you say it for the world.

Very provocative post, Cara.

For the most part I've kept my blog fairly light and frothy, mostly because some scary and depressing things loom large in my life, and I have trouble sharing them without being, well, negative, and who wants to read that? As a result I've had very few even slightly negative comments, only one that I can think of, and it was aimed primarily at other commenters and only indirectly at me, in a forthright yet respectful way. Even this amount of conflict sent me into a minor tizzy until a good friend and fellow knitblogger told me to chill, if I thought that was unpleasant I was leading a sheltered life. She was right, and I left the comments open, and I learned something from the criticism that was 100 percent valid and blogged about that.

I think you're right not to do the "bring it on" post, and I think you're right that we should all respect one another. There's a huge difference between "I disagree with your opinion and here's why" and "Cara, you ignorant sl*t." I think it's perfectly valid to say (as some people did at Steph's) "I'm troubled/put off/upset by your post and here's why," and I really wouldn't see that as an attack (I don't think -- see minor tizzy above).

As I've said before, I think of myself as the most insecure human being on the planet, and I can very easily regress to junior high and start looking at the world through the "everybody else is way cooler than I am and is laughing at me" lens. Yes, even lo these 30-plus years later. I find it very embarrassing, and I tend to assume that no one else does it (because everyone else is way cooler not to mention way better adjusted than I am). This seems to be a mistake on my part, as evidenced by (among other things) the defensive reactions that Steph provoked. So I want to keep in mind that *everybody* can feel uncool or vulnerable or defensive, including people I admire who get tons more comments than I do. I try to be kind anyway, just on GP, this is just one more good reason. On the flip side, if I inadvertently ticked someone off or made them feel defensive I would want to know about it.

If I posted a pattern or other how-to I would absolutely want people to point out mistakes to me or tell me if I'd left something out or hadn't described something clearly, but I'd see no point in someone's saying "your pattern sucks." (I should make very clear here that this hasn't happened to me: I'm just applying the Golden Rule.) I try to follow the same rule in comments: if I have a useful suggestion, I'll offer it, especially if someone asks for feedback, but I see no reason to be mean.

I'm trying for more blogging glasnost, especially since the more I share the more I learn.

I seem to have written a novella here. Thanks for making me think, and for reading.

I just wanted to call a little more attention to what Sara (1:47pm) wrote in her comment - because I couldn't agree more.

Also, isn't it funny that we are talking about whether or not bloggers can delete the words of unkind visitors admit the furor of controversy swirling around Don Imus and his comments re: the women of Rutgers basketball team... I bet those girls would give anything to be able to simply delete what that man said to reclaim what was supposed to be their moment.

Rock on, Cara - love the blog.

i guess i would ask, 'who cares what other people think?' could depend on what sort of experience you're aiming for with your blog.

my personal blog is really a way for me to vent about anything and everything, as well as share entertaining tidbits with [real life] friends. while i appreciate and enjoy their comments, i'm not doing it *for* the comments, i'm doing it to release pent up thoughts or stress. the comments are like an extra bonus.

my knitting blog may not be too dissimilar. the original idea was to document my FOs and share thoughts or information on things related to knitting. i'm relatively new to it all, so i don't really expect, nor am i looking for, compliments on my work. i'm also on a budget, so i'm not likely to have lots of exciting pictures and purchases for people to admire. it's really for me.

that all being said, i think *if* one of your goals is to have your website be a sort of online dialogue or forum (i.e. encouraging lots of comments), you're going to get the good with the bad.

i don't see much point in criticizing someone or their work on their blog, as 1) they're not likely to change because of it and 2) it's very public. i see *plenty* of things online that i could criticize to my heart's content, but i take it offline or let it go.

if there's ONE thing i've learned from my work, it's that email/IM (i.e. any medium other than real life, in person) is not a good way to communicate subjective information. too easy to misunderstand, leaves a trail of documentation that can bite you in the a** later. "we have a meeting at 4 tomorrow," is clear and objective. "i think you interrupt me in front of the client too much," is not.

i don't have a problem with people being critical, in general. i'd rather have people say what they think outright, than think it anyway, but keep it to themselves or worse, express it behind someone's back. being up front allows the recipient of the criticism to respond and potentially opens up discussion, which may not otherwise happen.

warning: digression into semantics!

i think politeness and respectfulness should always be encouraged, but being 'nice' to me, means something different. if you dislike someone and act 'nice' towards them, i think that's a bit deceptive in and of itself. i don't believe you have to be or should be nice to everyone. instead, be nice to people you actually like. be respectful and polite to everyone else.

regarding anonymity on the internet, i've been online for over 12 years and i try to keep my full, real name hidden. i've met plenty of ppl from the internet in real life, even met past boyfriends that way, and it's all good. however, i do think it can be dangerous to share too much of one's personal life online, cuz you just don't know who might be reading. seriously.

most good blogging software allows for full or at least partial restriction to registered users. if i were to have a kid, i'd only put their pic and personal info (name, etc.) in places where friends and family could access it. i'm talking restricted permissions.

anyway, the golden rule is inherently flawed because not everyone wants to be treated the same way. it's a nice rule of thumb, but lacks specificity.

Great Vonnegut quote. Common sense and common courtesy -- are they so hard? These are knitting blogs, personal expressions of a creative passion that are volunteered for our amusement and edification. As an editor, I could complain about all the misused it's/its, you're/your (the tip of the iceberg), but I realize someone is expressing his or her thoughts quickly, usually honestly, and is not submitting them for publication! I'm grateful to be a lurker in this community, to learn lots about knitting, to appreciate the joys and stresses in others' lives, and to help me keep some perspective on my own life (of which I'm of course highly critical). I have one "advantage," of sorts -- I just turned 65 and have lived through a lot of ups and downs (as everyone does), so I do have some appreciation of the vicissitudes of life. We're certainly a generous bunch (MSF, Dulaan project, et many al.). I should think some kindness toward one another should be inherent in our species (knitting bloggers). Are rules really needed? Maybe just common sense and common courtesy (imagine our politicians using them!).

Another interesting conversation, you're making me think again. I don't believe I've made any negative comments & haven't recieved one (I recieved 1 comment entirely in french which turned out to be spam once I'd used my Canadian high School french to translate). In real life I try to confront issues like this and speak to the person who has a problem with me directly, on blogs I just tend to click away from those I find offensive. If I don't like what someone is knitting or has to say I simply don't read them, the option not to have a dialogue is always open. A dialogue means taking time & effort to see their point of view & there is no guarantee they'll see or respect mine. I've met some nice people on the interent and enjoy most people I've met but frankly it's not worth the effort to work on understanding with those who are unkind and I've got better things to do with my time.

Cara, a great forum you have here! I think these lie in the heart of the matter: conduct, accountability, subjectivity.

I've seen a few references to driving here, and I think it's an appropriate analogy. One navigates the freeway or the web ensconced in a protective cocoon, and they have a certain degree of anonymity because of that. There are the intentional rule-breakers, the rule followers, and those who straddle the line. All well and good, it keeps the flow/dialogue going, but note that it's based on the person's own code of conduct and their accountability.

One's idea of an honest opinion may be seen as tactless (ref: Pixie's comment). One may interpret constructive criticism as a personal attack (ref: Lolly's comment). One can ask for honest opinions and as a result receive all kinds of comments (see AF Lauren's blog, or even this one). One may think someone's serious when in fact it may be a joke.

If people want to comment anonymously, it's their right. I'd prefer it if people stood by what they were saying with a real email address or url, but alas not everyone's like that. However, it goes both ways: it's the blog writer's right to delete comments they don't like. Additionally, they can write whatever they want to their heart's content, because they can.

I'm with MOW Julia here in that I don't want rules to govern what I'm going to say. It's a relatively new medium, and people are still exploring the boundaries. Because of the fact that it relates closely to free speech in blogging (I think there are cases in court right now regarding free speech --war, trade secrets, company launches, spam, etc.), putting a band-aid on it at this present time won't solve the issue of a person's behavior.

This is a personal issue, certainly not a one to be governed by rules.

the sh--, made me think of Ren and Stimpy...implode, yes, the sh-t may implode and then it would be snuffed out....I am sure you know the theory....but I may have been the one to comment, I am glad you like your project, but when I say it, I mean it literally, and I love your project, the miters are so beautiful, I was thinking about the reds last night in my dreams and figured, if she gray scales this pic, she would see what to do with the value problem, think she's having. The funny thing about communication is trying to qualify what people mean when they say it. My brilliant son, when he was five years old, tormented his older brothers(4 and 5 years older) by repeatedly saying to them, "Do you know what you mean, when you say it? I say, do I know what you mean when you say it? Confuscious said something like, if you knew what I knew and if I knew what you knew and the conversation goes on and on (a quote from a scene in "The Last Emperor" I leave you with Confucious and qualify---that's a whole lotta talkin' goin' on. But then if everything was perfect, we'd all be in heaven, now wouldn't we....or robotic....thank God we're not that!

A code of conduct is an interesting thought. My blog is primarily about knitting; sometimes I talk about the rest of my life, but the fact remains that my blog represents only a tiny portion of my life. If someone were to post comments on MY blog that I felt were offensive or unnecessary for the discussion (i.e., a criticism of my bathing habits as opposed to a thoughtful criticism of my knitting), I would feel no guilt at deleting it. We may have free speech here, but just as I am welcome to unsubscribe from a blog I don't want to read, I am not required to read a comment I find offensive on my own blog.

With respect to my own content, if I don't have something nice to say about an individual, I just don't say anything, at least online. The internet is a lot more public than we often stop to think about, and I don't want to inadvertently hurt someone. This really hit home for me when a former roommate posted on her blog (which she didn't realize I read), that she was really upset that I had never mentioned her on my blog. She then went on to air some of the dirty laundry between us on her blog, which was very hurtful. I left a message explaining that I didn't mention her because 1) it's a knitting blog and she doesn't knit, and 2) most of my personal life doesn't appear on my blog. I apologized for hurting her and said I'd love to catch up with her if she were ready to move on. I never got a response, and I wonder if it's because she got embarrassed when she realized how public her comments were.

I've always stood by the rule that if I couldn't look someone in the eye and say it, I won't put it out on the internet.

While the 'Bring It On' post is an interesting idea, I think it's better that it stays just an idea. If people have legitimate, constructive criticism, they'll probably say it on a regular blog post anyway. Everyone else is just going to try to think up something critical because you asked them to, and encouraging people to sit around thinking negatively just seems...I don't know...strange, and not a good kind of strange. And, like you said in your post, you don't really need criticism from internet strangers, you have friends and family in real life that can help you out if you're looking for self-improvement.

All in all, instead of coming up with a new code of conduct for the internet, I think it might be best to realize we already have codes of conduct for social interaction and to not hold the internet exempt from them.

I liked what you said about your reaction to criticism from your writing classes - you do know immediately when a critique is valid and when it isn't. And that's what I think would have happened if you had done the 24 hour experiment. You probably would have gotten some valid and useful suggestions, and some that you could easily dismiss out of hand. I've been really lucky in that I haven't had a lot of negativity in the comments to my blog (or maybe I've just gotten good at blocking at what I don't need to see or hear!). Thoughtful post - thanks.

Duuude, what happened to my paragraph spacing!

You know your post has made me wonder. I personally tend to think of knitters as warm-hearted, creative, fun people. From the numerous blogs that I have come across things like shipping presents to a knitter having a bad day/week/year, to swaps and secret pals, I have also gotten the impression that most knitters are also very gernerous.

It may be nieve but it seems like most knitters/knit-bloggers would have the common curtesy to not send degrading and hurtful comments to another knitter. Disagree, sure but not rail and ridicule.

Do you think that we as a knitting community are less likely to receive mean-spirited comments? (I do know that there are bound to be a few bad eggs but compared to the rest of the blogosphere?)

Yep yep. Golden Rule. All the way. Luke 6:31.

And um... hey, if I need to beat up anybody in Kansas you just let me know, 'kay? xoxox

Thanks once again for a very thought provoking post. I must be very lucky not to have had any negative comments in the two years I have been blogging but I have seen some hurtful coments on other blogs and cannot for the life of me fathom why people do it. Constructive criticism is one thing, nasty and hurtful comments are something else entirely and to my mind unacceptable.

What you wrote made me think about how this phenomenon is not just limited to blogs--it happens all the time in the "real world", too. People judge other people all the time based on very limited impressions or interactions, without knowing *anything* of who they really are.

I once read a quote that said, "When you meet someone, remember these things: 1) Everyone loves something. 2) Everyone is afraid of something. 3) Everyone has lost something." It's true. There are real people who feel real things behind blogs. Snap judgments don't help anything.

Also, your miter work is so beautiful! I don't think I have the patience or the wallet for such a project, but I LOVE your squares! The colors make me happy just from the photos.

I hardly ever write comments but this subject does comply me to type. As I was reading today's blog, I was shocked. It would never dawn on me to write a message attacking someone's personal life. You can disagree with someone's opinion and this can lead to an interesting and lively discussion. Its when it crosses over into a personal attack that it becomes wrong.

I know knitters are a wonderful community. I would hate to see someone shut down their blog just because some bad apple has been rude and mean.

ooh, this topic always freaks me out a little. My first experience with this kind of blog negativity was about 3 years ago when I was looking at my stats and saw a large number of clicks coming from one site. I followed the link - excited! to have a new reader! - and saw a negative post about something I'd started. It turned into a ridiculous flame war, and an us vs. them fight, and it was so yucky.

I remember being so hurt and astonished that someone would actually take the time to craft such a snarky commentary, and it was the first time I realized that by blogging, I was putting myself out there for criticism. It's true - if you have a public space on the internet, you're putting yourself out there. But WHYWHYWHYWHY the negativity? I just don't understand.

And I agree - criticizing a designer's work is a different ball game, and sometimes, fairly warranted. How often, though, do those critiques turn into a personal attack? SO. OFTEN.

You really hit the nail on the head with the comparison of your two negative comments. Constructive criticism and personal attacks are SO different. And I confess: I hardly EVER leave negative comments on my blog. I view my blog as my journal -- my record of what's going on in my life -- and I'm SO happy that I have readers who want to come and engage in a conversation and share. But I like my blog to be a shiny, happy place, and if someone comes in and says "You're stupid" or "You're a bad *whatever* (knitter, dog owner, friend)", I delete that shit. Right away. Because I don't want to come back and remember that.

That's not to say that I mind disagreement, I just can't take any personal criticism.I wish I could be the kind of person to say "Screw the haters!" but I'm not. I'm sensitive. That first incident was so hard for me - and here's another confession - I still check that other blog ALL THE TIME. It's full of negative comments about EVERYTHING, and it makes me so mad, but I still check it. I don't know why...

And I've totally left comments that I regretted afterwards. And sent emails that I regretted afterwards. TOTALLY. So I'm guilty too. But I'm much more aware of how a comment can be read ever since my yucky incident, because I would never want to make someone feel the way I felt when I followed that link to a mean post about me.

Sorry for the long ass comment. I'm like Elisabeth - this issue keeps me up at night sometimes.

Hello,

I have been visiting your blog for several months now and never told you how much I enjoy it.

I also never had the urge to leave you a comment.

This time, after reading your "epic essay", I have to say: Well said... so very well said!

Thank you for taking the time to think about this matter and to put it out there.

And moreover, thank you for your time to actually create a blog and put yourself and your knitting out there.

I remember the first time I read your blog a couple of months ago. You let the f-bomb fly. I thought...holy crap, someone who actually says what she means! She doesn't beat around the bush and keep her feelings hidden because it would be the "proper" thing to do. I appreciate your straightforward and honest approach to life and knitting on your blog. It's refreshing. If certain people don't like that, then stop reading! You're blog is the first one I read everyday because of your witty content that makes people really think about things that matter, beautiful photos and because you're just damn funny! I really admire you for standing up for yourself and being who YOU are not who everyone else thinks that you SHOULD be! (Love the miters by the way)

The internet gives one a sense of anonymity and distance. It's very similar to driving on the freeway in rush hour. 95% of the drivers are only thinking about how late THEY are and never look in the review mirror to see the destruction they've left behind by cutting off others.

Personally, if I don't like something someone's knitting, I just think "I'm glad they're happy with it." And then I really *do* keep my feelings to myself. Just because it's not right for me, doesn't make it wrong or bad or ugly. Just not my taste. Now if they ASK for opinions, I might voice that exact thing: "Those wouldn't be my choice of colors but..." etc.

As far as comments by others goes, I haven't had to face the problem yet. But if someone posted something personal, offensive or just plain mean, I wouldn't hesitate to delete it. They're guests in my 'house' - if they don't like the rules, fuck 'em.

In the TMI department, I often go an extra day without a shower too. I like to think I'm being environmentally responsible, not lazy. Of course, it *is* a loooong walk up to the showers from the boat...

I apologize that I did not read all the comments that came before mine so I may be saying something that's already been said.

I feel about blogging the same way I do about any other type of media. If I don't like it - I don't read/watch/listen to it. I can respect that other people have different opinions than I have and that's ok too. If we were all the same, we'd be a mighty boring species.

I also think of my interactions with folks on blogs the way I do about face-to-face encounters. If I don't get along with someone or they are mean to me, I don't pursue the relationship further. I don't get up in their face and tell them I don't like them. I wasn't raised that way and so I don't act that way on the net.

It's one thing to be critical of a pattern or a yarn, it's another to be outwardly nasty to a person. That's just plain rude. I don't subscribe to blogs I don't like but I respect their choice to talk about themselves the same way I blather on about myself on my blog.

The rules of social engagement are not carved in stone someplace. They are supposed to be common sense. Those are the rules we should live by in the blogosphere. It's too bad common courtesy is so damned uncommon.

Ok, I'll hush up now. Whew, I got all riled up...

I've been a long-time lurker, but have never commented on your blog before. I have not been long in the blogging world, and I'm not very eloquent, but I really felt the need to pitch in here.

I've always been from the "if you can't say anything nice..." school, especially when it comes to addressing people directly about what makes them an individual, which includes what they put out as an expression of that individuality. I like to appreciate, rather than denigrate, what makes each of us unique. Unfortunately, mean people do not have that mindset. I believe some are under the impression that blogs are yet another form of faceless media put out for THEIR entertainment, and I believe that makes them believe they have the right to criticize openly. But they are mistaken. I believe most of us blog to display our own art, craftwork, opinions and life as an expression of ourselves; and if we get some nice comments and make some friends along the way with our sharing, all the better.

I can't conceive of people going out of their way to write critical, hurtful comments or personal attacks on someone's blog. If you don't like it, move along. Unfortunately, there are many people in this world that feel the need to level themselves with others by stepping over and on top of them. They feel unreasonably threated by someone else's expression, or jealous of their display, and feel the need to level the field in a hurtful way. Again, I can't imagine ever trying to wound a perfect stranger in this way, to what reward?

I appreciate those who express themselves in an honest way, and admire those who can really put themselves out there in a personal way, risking a personal attack. I like the weird ones, the artsy ones, the filthy-mouthed ones, the funny ones, etc., all out there blogging what they choose. How awesome to have an unedited forum to share and express one's individuality. I, for one, only put on my blog what I can risk not being mortally wounded over. I wish I could do more, but I always hesitate at the last minute, fearing some comment that attacks my being or soul. Yes, it does hurt to have our work criticized, but not like it would if I was told my feelings were wrong or I am an idiot, or worse. So, for now anyway, I keep it to knitting, cats, life observations, a little humor and some griping, all stopping just short of what I am afraid to make public because some mean person out there could wound me over it. I think the beauty of blogging is that we can each take it as far as we choose, in whatever direction we choose, to our own comfort level. But I don't think any of us puts it out there on any level to be harassed or rudely critized or hurt.

As far as a code of conduct for blogs---ridiculous! Our personal blogs are not a writing job, they are our forum for personal expression. We all edit ourselves according to our own inner code of conduct, which is plenty enough. If someone doesn't like the way I express myself, how I use my time, or how I do my projects, relief for them is only one click away!

Thanks for providing the impetus and the invitation to comment on this. I am sincerely sorry that people have chosen to be cruel or mean to you in the form of their nasty comments, and you are brave to put it out there and get in their face! Mean people truly suck, and unfortunately, the web gives all of them a nice, safe, cowardly forum to express their unpleasant selves!! Hang in there, and all of us who click this way appreciate what you share. You express it however you damned well please!

Wow, I definitely don't think my skin is thick enough to ask for a "bring it on" day! I admire your hide, that is for certain.